Masters of Leadership, hosted by the Consumer Technology Association (CTA)® and the Northern Virginia Technology Council (NVTC), welcomed former Governor of New Jersey Chris Christie in a conversation with CTA President and CEO and NVTC board member Gary Shapiro about being a leader during a crisis, the future of the economy and more.
Christie spoke of leadership lessons he learned by being governor in the wake of Storm Sandy. He highlighted three principles of handling a disaster:
As the novel coronavirus outbreak continues, the U.S. is seeing more bipartisanship than many might have expected. Christie looked back on a handshake with President Obama that was largely covered in media, and how a leader — especially as a leader during a crisis — has to take care of the people who elected them and put aside political differences for better outcomes for everyone.
“When people, no matter what their party is, deserve praise, we should praise them,” Christie said of acknowledging the success of disaster relief efforts.
Christie recently made headlines for his push to reopen the economy.
For Christie, recommendations from doctors, economists, business people and other experts should lead the president or a governor to consolidate the advice and make a call that keeps the country’s best interest in mind.
Pointing out unemployment and the impact of mental health, Christie noted that the country needs to find balance and reopen to help return to the “American way of life.”
Christie emphasized, however, that reopening is still a state-by-state determination.
As businesses begin to consider reopening, many employers — particularly small businesses — are anxious about regulations stating that employers are deemed responsible if employees contract COVID-19 once businesses reopen.
Christie believes that if an employer is taking reasonable safety measures to protect their employees, businesses should receive liability protection.
Christie expects the health care and technology industries to be stronger than ever in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak. Christie hopes the attitude toward health care will become more positive. With people turning to tech more as the world isolates, the shift has shown how the tech industry enables us to continue operating.
“It’s a credible testimony to the infrastructure that’s been built, and the incredible innovation that’s been developed by that portion of the tech industry, to allow that infrastructure to be utilized,” Christie said.
Hear about Christie’s future plans for public office, his take on the Fort Lee Lane closure, the upcoming election, data privacy and more in the full session.
Rich Montoni:
For our Virtual Masters in Leadership Series Event. My name is Rich Montoni and I am chairman of NVTC and vice chairman of Maximus. I am delighted to welcome you all here. We have an exciting event for you today. We have former governor of New Jersey Chris Christie. He will be joining Gary Shapiro, who's the CTA president and CEO, in a fireside chat. Before we get started, I have a few housekeeping items. Everybody has been muted. During the Q&A portion of our event, if you would like to ask a question, it's pretty simple, please use the Q&A function and type out your question. That Q&A function is located in the middle of the bottom bar of your screen. This series is made possible by our co-producer CTA, our premier sponsor SAP and our support sponsors who include American Systems, Amazon Web Services, CGI federal, CNSI, Cresa, Iridium, Raymond James & Associates and Transformation Systems Inc. Thank you all for your support. If any of you out there would like to join them as a sponsor in future events, please contact Yolanda Lee at NVTC today.
Rich Montoni:
The next three events in the series will be on as follows. Tuesday, June 2nd at 11:00 am with Lisa Su. Lisa is the CEO of Advanced Micro Devices, also known as AMD. And on June 11th, we will have The Heritage Foundation president, Kay Coles James. And on June 23rd, we will have Florida Congresswoman, Stephanie Murphy at 2:00 pm. Registration is now open for all of these events at the NVTC website. Now, I'm pleased to introduce the NVTC president and chief executive officer, Bobbie Kilberg. Bobbie.
Bobbie Kilberg:
Good morning, Governor.
Chris Christie:
Good morning, Bobbie.
Bobbie Kilberg:
Hi. Gary is going to do the formal introduction. All I wanted to say was I am so delighted and pleased that you could join us today. You and I have been through a lot of battles together and we've developed, I think, a close and lifelong relationship. I respect you, I admire you. And I know that you have some good pearls of wisdom to share with us today as to what's on the other side of this coronavirus. So, we're looking forward to hearing from you and thank you very, very much.
Chris Christie:
My pleasure, Bobbie. Anytime for you.
Rich Montoni:
Well, thank you, Bobbie. Well said. Now, it's my honor to introduce today's moderator, Gary Shapiro. He is a member of the board of directors of NVTC and he is the president and chief executive officer of the Consumer Technology Association, also known as CTA. It is the US trade association representing more than 2200 consumer technology companies in which owns and produces the Consumer Electronics Show, CES, the global stage for innovation. It is through his New York Times best selling books, television appearances and he's a columnist, whose more than 1000 opinion pieces have appeared in publications such as The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times and The Washington Post, that Gary has helped direct policymakers and business leaders on the importance of innovation in the US economy. He is considered an influencer on LinkedIn, he has more than 300,000 followers. Please welcome Gary Shapiro. Gary.
Gary Shapiro:
Thank you, Rich and thank you, Bobbie. And welcome to everyone for this leadership series. We've had a couple and they've been terrific. It's my honor to introduce to you now, Governor Chris Christie, he was inaugurated as the 55th governor of the state of New Jersey on January 19th 2010. He was reelected with 60% of the vote in 2013 and he served two terms as governor. He left office in January of 2018. And while in office, he was well known not only for his willingness to speak on issues, but for focusing on fiscal responsibility, pension and health benefit reform, education reform and the opioid crisis. He actually devised New Jersey's groundbreaking response to Superstorm Sandy, something I think we'll speak about later. And he led the rebuilding of the state's housing, infrastructure and public schools and he set a bipartisan example for storm recovery. He was elected chairman of the Republican Governors Association in 2014 and in 2017, President Trump appointed him chairman of the President's Commission on Combating Drug Addiction in the opioid crisis.
Gary Shapiro:
He was also, before serving as governor, was the chief federal law enforcement officer in New Jersey for seven years. And he led the fight on terrorism in the post-9/11 period. He served as one of 17 US Attorneys on the Attorney General's Advisory Council in Washington, D.C, and he's now a senior legal and political commentator on ABC News and he's the managing member of the Christie Law Firm and Christie 55 Solutions in Morristown, New Jersey. Welcome, Governor. How are you?
Chris Christie:
I'm doing great. How are you today?
Gary Shapiro:
I'm doing terrific. Where are you, Governor? Where are you? Are you at home?
Chris Christie:
I am in my home in Mendham, New Jersey, with my wife, Mary Pat and all four of our children back under the same roof for the last 10 weeks and so it's been an interesting time for our family as it has been for every family across the country.
Gary Shapiro:
Have you been on a plane in the last 10 weeks?
Chris Christie:
No. The last time I was on a plane was on March 16th, I believe. I was in Florida for a board of directors meeting and I flew back up and West Palm Beach Airport was pretty much deserted, people had already stopped flying and it was the last time I was on a plane, was March 16th.
Gary Shapiro:
So like many of us that are part of this event today, we fly a lot, what's it like to be home for 10 weeks in a row with your family?
Chris Christie:
Well, it's a little bit like Groundhog Day in the sense that I've seen a couple of dynamics. One, the day of the week doesn't matter to people anymore. It's just seven days a week and you can name it whatever you want to name it. People act the same each and every day, there's no weekends anymore. It hasn't been in our house. Secondly, the silver lining to all of it for us has been, we've had more family dinners together in the last 10 weeks that we probably had in the 10 years before that, given my schedule of being the governor, running for president and chairing the RGA. I wasn't around a lot. And so the last 10 weeks, the silver lining has been we've really enjoyed each other and we've been playing a lot of board games together after dinner with the absence of sports to watch on TV every night. So there's been a lot of silver linings to it, but in the end it's like Groundhog Day every day.
Gary Shapiro:
So have you gone out at all from your home and visited any local retailers or stores or done anything like that?
Chris Christie:
Well, we've gone... We have patronized a lot of the local restaurants for takeout and we try to do that two or three times a week just to support those restaurants and hopefully continue to keep them in business. And the only retail that we've done is our supermarket and our pharmacy. But other than that, we haven't done anyplace else. In New Jersey, retail just opened for curbside pickup only this week. And so all the other retail places were absolutely closed by executive orders. So it's been very, very quiet here in New Jersey. Now, we're starting Memorial Day weekend, the beaches are going to be open in New Jersey. We have a house at the Jersey Shore. So we'll be heading down there later this afternoon. And hopefully, we'll see what the Jersey Shore looks like for the beginning of the summer season. After Sandy, when most of the Jersey Shore was destroyed, we made it a point to make sure that we had the shore back open by the next summer because it's such a large part of New Jersey's economy.
Chris Christie:
So I'm gratified that the governor finally relented to open the beaches. Hopefully, he will allow these restaurants to open more as well, because it's going to be enormously damaging to not only... Forget about a retailer who depends on foot traffic, but this is a seasonal retailer that really only has 10 weeks to make 52 weeks of income. So, I'm hoping that the governor is able to get that stuff going and allow these people to make a living.
Gary Shapiro:
So you mentioned Storm Sandy, as did I, and now is a true leadership test for you. We're talking about leadership. You came through with flying colors, even though it was a disaster. What did you learn from that experience?
Chris Christie:
Well, I think there are three principles you learn from that experience. Principle number one is, do not be afraid to overreact and over prepare. When you're confronting a disaster, overreacting and over preparing is not something that most people are going to criticize you for. And you can always scale it back. But once you've under prepared or under reacted, it's very difficult to ramp it up in the midst of a crisis. So, that's the first point. The second point is that you have to bring the very best talent you have around the table and then delegate tasks to them and empower them to do it. In a disaster, there's no way that the decision maker can make every decision. You just can't. And so what you need to do is bring those best people around and not just keep them in their lane. If there's something else you need them to do, it's all hands on deck. For instance, the woman who was the head of our economic development authority, I brought her in to run getting gasoline back in gas stations and getting gas stations reopened because they had no power.
Chris Christie:
So they couldn't pump the gas up to the tanks. And for some, we didn't have refinery so we couldn't find gasoline anywhere to sell. So in a state like New Jersey, with nine million people in the aftermath of Superstorm Sandy, we had only 56 operational gas stations in the entire state. When I called her, she said, "What do I know about this?" And I said, "You're a smart woman, you'll figure it out. Make whatever decisions you need to make." So, that's the second thing. The third thing is, I told all the staff that they need to rip off the rear view mirror, meaning you can't wring your hands over every decision. And then if we made a decision that turns out to be truly bad, believe me, it would come back through the windshield. You'd get it back again, you'd get another crack at it. But if you wring your hands over every decision, you're never going to make decisions and the inbox is just going to continue to pile up. And that is what people hate the most in a disaster. Is when they feel like decisions aren't being made, progress isn't being made.
Chris Christie:
And for you as the leader, as opposed to how you deal with your constituents or with your employees, it's very important for you to be visible, aggressive and have a plan and be talking about it all the time. That's what people want from a leader. And I think that's why you've seen Governor Cuomo and Governor Hogan get such good reviews in the midst of the current crisis, because they've been very aggressive, they've been very communicative and out there talking to their public and they've had a plan and they're executing on their plan. Now, people will critique the plan as they critique the plan in every circumstance. But there's nothing worse than people feeling as if you're rudderless in a crisis. You've got to provide that strength.
Gary Shapiro:
And be visible. So for the COVID crisis, there's a lot of analogies. You mentioned a couple. But one of the things you did is you worked across party lines. In fact, there's a famous photo of you with, I guess it was candidate Obama then or President Obama.
Chris Christie:
President Obama.
Gary Shapiro:
President Obama. And there was some concern that you were helping him, his reelection efforts which any... The lesson is bipartisanship and I personally think you did the right thing. You're doing what's best for New Jersey, you got federal support. But that bipartisanship, are we seeing it now with COVID? Or do you think we could have more of it?
Chris Christie:
I think we're seeing more of it than I suspected we would, given the crisis in the lack of bipartisanship beforehand. Before the crisis, I don't think you saw almost any bipartisanship. The president barely had anything good to say about any Democrat and almost no Democrat had anything good to say about the president or the Republican Party. I think you've seen some real great bipartisanship between Governor Newsom in California for instance, and President Trump. That's been surprising to me. Gavin Newsom is one of the most liberal and partisan Democrats in the country, but he has really worked hard to work well with the President. And I think the President has done the same with Governor Newsom. So, I don't think you see... It's not like it's springtime and bipartisanship are the flowers and they're bursting out everywhere. But you're seeing green shoots in places where given the climate in the country before that, I think most people would've been very skeptical about that. And Bobbie remembers quite well, the price we paid for the bipartisanship that we showed during Sandy.
Chris Christie:
She spent a lot of time with me in New Hampshire and around the country when I was running for president and she was one of my biggest supporters. And I heard more about that handshake, which was mischaracterized as a hug, but that handshake on the tarmac in Atlantic City Airport, than I heard about any aspect of my record as governor. And it just shows you how divided the country was, but I've been asked this question over and over again, about whether I would do it differently. And I wouldn't. I worked really hard for Mitt Romney, I raised more money for him than any elected official in the country and did more circuit stops, more than anybody other than Paul Ryan. And I was totally behind Mitt Romney, I wanted him to be president and voted for him. But when you're governor, your job is to take care of the people who elected you.
Chris Christie:
And I don't know what some partisan Republicans expected me to do, like wear my Romney sweatshirt when I greeted the president at the airport or to bad mouth him, but none of that stuff was going to be good for New Jersey. And by the way, it wasn't true either. In no time after Sandy, President Obama did a very good job in helping get us back on our feet. So when people, no matter what their party is, deserve praise, we should praise them and we have too little of that in our politics right now and I'm glad to have set an example with President Obama about what I think is the right way to do it.
Gary Shapiro:
It is an interesting analogy going back eight years because it was an election year then, it's an election year now, that would argue against bipartisanship. The handshake or even the hug, that's off the table now for everyone given-
Chris Christie:
Yeah. I think... I do. Both of those things are now physically off the table, it probably will make life a lot easier for some of these folks. But in the end, I guarantee you that you will see in Trump campaign commercials this fall, kind words being said about his handling of the crisis, by Governor Newsom, by Governor Cuomo and others in the Democratic Party, who have said nice things about him. And I think that that's an advantage the President is going to have coming into the fall. He's got some disadvantages too, but that will be one of the advantages that he'll have coming into the fall.
Gary Shapiro:
Now getting back to the COVID crisis, I see that you wrote something in the Washington Post -
Chris Christie:
Yes.
Gary Shapiro:
- on May 8th and you talk about the false choice. And you've called for the US to push open, reopen the economy, because you said there's going to be deaths no matter what. So, what I was trying to figure out from that is, do you agree with what the Trump administration guidelines are at this point on how we reopen?
Chris Christie:
Well, I think the guidelines are exactly that, guidelines. And I think that as a governor, you've got to decide what you think is best for your state given the circumstances that are on the ground. Here's what I don't want to have happened. No one elected Anthony Fauci to be president of the United States. I've known Dr. Fauci for years, I have great respect for him. But we do not want an epidemiologist deciding national policy. We want him advising on national policy. So If I were president, I would sit and listen to Dr. Fauci and the recommendations he makes and they would be just one set of the recommendations I listen to. I would listen to other doctors as well. I would listen to economists, I'd listen to the business people. The job of the president or governor is to consolidate all that advice and then use your own judgment to make what you think is in the country's best interest. And I don't think anybody can argue now with a straight face that keeping this country closed and keeping us all quarantined is in our best interest.
Chris Christie:
We now have 36 million people unemployed and it's going to take a long time for those jobs to come back in my view. And many of them will not come back. And so, we have to fight for the American way of life as well. And I have to tell you, I don't think the American people believe that life is supposed to be riskless, there's going to be risk no matter what. No matter what we do, we've been quarantined for two months and every day more people die of COVID, right? We've flatten the curve. The deal that we made when we quarantined was not quarantine until a cure, it was quarantine to flatten the curve. We've now done that. And as we open up as I said, more deaths are going to be inevitable.
Chris Christie:
But I also will tell you this because I spent a lot of time on mental health issues during my time as governor and since I've left the governorship, we are going to see for months if not years after, the mental health impact of this quarantine. We already see increased drug addiction, we already see increased suicide and we see increased domestic violence. And so my point in the May 8th piece was, Gary, every life matters. And so it's time to not only treasure the lives of those who've gotten the virus and are susceptible to it, but also to treasure the lives of the victims of the shutdown also. And we need to find that balance. That's what leaders are supposed to do. Is to find balance, not to adhere to just one area or the other. The President did with Dr. Fauci advised him to do to flatten the curve, but I don't think that needs to continue. And I think we have to... And there also will be at some point, herd immunity that will go into this as well as more and more people are exposed to the virus.
Chris Christie:
So, I don't think... And the last piece point I'd make on it too, is that we've also changed our behaviors. You said there's no handshakes or hugs, people are doing to be wearing masks when they're interacting with other folks, washing their hands much more frequently than people ever did before, cleaning surfaces, all those things people are going to be much more sensitive to than they ever were before the beginning of March of this year.
Gary Shapiro:
Absolutely. Well, do you think that the bipartisanship we experienced in this and flatten the curve in March and April has given way in May to some split in the country and the very points you're talking about. On one hand, we have people who say stay at home, we have to protect the lives of the vulnerable people. And the other hand, and a lot of those people are urban, let's be honest, they're Democrats and they're people that are teleworking and they have good incomes. And on the other hand, you have rural people, you have people, the working class, if you will, that's on the other side, rural America, a lot of them are Trump supporters, say, "We got to go out there take..."
Gary Shapiro:
Some of them are saying, "Let's rip off the masks, we don't need that, we're in the rural, this isn't a problem for us, we take the risks." And then there's more middle ground, which I think is most of America, is, "Let's be reasonable, we're adults, let's wear masks, let's go back slowly and graduate and do what's right and balance along the way." But the partisanship though, has changed dramatically in just the last few weeks. And your article is one of the earliest, but it's getting worse on social media. It's [crosstalk 00:20:49] over this.
Chris Christie:
It is. But listen, I do think that there are Democrats who believe we should be opening. And I know there are Republicans who think we should be not opening. Because I've heard from them, believe me. I've heard from a number of them after I wrote a couple of those columns. If you hear from, let's say, in the rural areas, I still have a lot of supporters from Iowa, when I was running for president. The texts and the emails I'm getting from them, they're irate, because it's never been a big problem in Iowa. And their view is, "Well, why the heck should Iowa be closed down?" I think they're right. This has to be a state by state determination. In New York, New Jersey, it's been awfully difficult, the worst in the country. Well, obviously, some of the steps you take here are going to be significantly different than what you're going to do in Wyoming. Now, it's just happens that this tends to be more blue area of the country and that tends to be more red area, but I really don't think it's political. I think it's about circumstances on the ground.
Chris Christie:
And the circumstances on the ground have not dictated some of the really severe measures that people are advocating to continue to be imposed. And so I'm hopeful that it won't be a political issue. Part of the thing that's driving the politics of this too, candidly is the media. CNN is the death network now. All you hear about, constantly, that upper right hand corner is tracking the number of deaths. There's never an upbeat optimistic attitude that's expressed on CNN. And that's driving some of the attitude as well. And so I believe that this is less partisan than it is regional. And to the extent that some of those regions tend to be red or blue, we could be fooled into thinking it's partisan, but it really isn't. It really is people reflecting what they see on the ground with their own constituents and what those people as constituents feel is going on there.
Chris Christie:
But even in a place like New Jersey, Gary, there is uproar here about the fact that certain things aren't back. And the governor is taking an enormous amount of hit over this, because people have had enough, they feel like they're adults, they know what steps to take to try to protect themselves, and that they want to be trusted to do that. And not to have there be a daddy state here. The last thing I'd say at this point is to the most vulnerable. Well, the most vulnerable are going to have to make sure that they don't do some of these things. If you're 75 or older, if you have some underlying condition like diabetes, or any type of respiratory disease, you have to be more careful.
Chris Christie:
For instance Gary, I'm a lifelong asthmatic. I've had asthma since I was 13 years old. And I'm under active treatment for it all the time since that time. I'm going to have to be a lot more careful about what I do because COVID-19 for an asthmatic is a lot more threatening than it is for someone who doesn't have a respiratory disease. So everyone's going to have to make their judgments on this. But I tend to think that we'll see it... If we see through the lens of it being more regional than partisan, I think it'll bring our cynicism down a little bit.
Gary Shapiro:
I hope you're right. By the way, do you wear a mask when you go outside?
Chris Christie:
If I go out and walk around in my backyard, no. If I go out where I'm going to interact with any people, yeah I wear a mask. I have a mask in my car, I keep it there all the time, except when I have to get it cleaned and then I get a disposable mask in there. So I've gotten... Actually the mother of a friend of my oldest son's made me a New York Mets mask. So now I get to show my New York Mets fandom as I walk around and do different things when I'm interacting with folks.
Gary Shapiro:
So if this crisis had occurred while you were governor, would you be wearing this publicly?
Chris Christie:
Oh yeah, absolutely. Sure.
Gary Shapiro:
How about if you were president?
Chris Christie:
I think it's a mistake for the president not to. I understand he gets tested every day unlike anybody else in the country, except for him and the Vice President, we know on a day to day basis whether they have it or they don't. But nonetheless, I think it's a very important symbolic thing and I'd advise the president directly, I think he should wear a mask.
Gary Shapiro:
Well, since you raised the issue, what else do you think he should do that he's not doing?
Chris Christie:
Wow! Listen, Gary. I'd keep most of my advice to him between he and I, but what I think, I think the President's approach to this has gotten significantly better after the first few weeks. I think it really turned around when he gave his Oval Office speech, closed travel from Europe and then shut down the country and advised that the country should be shut down. I think they were a little slow in the beginning, I've said that publicly. And I think that it set an example that allowed the states to be a lot slower than they should have been. But since that time, I think the President has taken a number of real important steps to closing down the country for as long as he's done it. The steps he took on ventilators was very important in invoking the Defense Production Act on that. There's no more complaints about a lack of PPE in the country, he engaged a lot of the private sector to be manufacturing that.
Chris Christie:
So I think a lot of what the President's done since that March, I think it was 12th or 13th, speech in the Oval Office, has been very, very good. I think in the February to early March timeframe, I think there are very few people in leadership in this country, the President or governors, who were taking this as serious as they should have. And I do think that part of that is people who have never been through a crisis before. We're talking about leadership this morning. You can't do on the job training on this, you learn and having had experience in a crisis before, I was advising them overreact, over prepare, you can always ration it back, as I said earlier to you. And I think if you've not been through something like that before, it's difficult to relate to it, but I understood it and I think that it's a really important principle of disaster management.
Gary Shapiro:
Do you think there's a good balance between the federal role and the state role or regional roles now?
Chris Christie:
I think there is. I think the only thing that I would have disputed was, early on invoking the Defense Production Act a little more and then FEMA distributes some of these... I've advocated for that in the testing area. So the federal government controls the elements you need to do testing and distributes it based upon need across the country rather than which governor is the most innovative in terms of getting testing materials. It should go where the need is. But I think generally, there's been a good balance because I don't think that people would stand for in this country a federal control of their day to day conduct. It's tough enough for the states to do that, let alone the feds. So I think in the beginning of the crisis, the President took the right steps in empowering the governors and giving them guidance as to what to do. Most of the government's followed that guidance, if not all of them.
Chris Christie:
But now these other decisions are to be made regionally, because what's happening in Montana, is much different than what's happening in New Jersey. And each governor should be able to make their own calls on that. So I think there's been a pretty good balance for the most part. I teased the President in the beginning. I said, "When you're governor, you don't really ever care what the President thinks, you just care what he pays for." And I think most governors probably feel the same way right now.
Gary Shapiro:
In terms of us getting back as a country and going back to work, many employers, especially small businesses, are afraid they will get deluged by trial lawyers, demand letters, lawsuits, claiming COVID-19 exposure. California has already issued an executive order or attorney general rule saying that it is presumed that if an employee gets sick, it's the employer, it happened at work and the employer is responsible. There's legislation that the Republicans are pushing in Congress, which would have some type of blanket immunity, as long as there's no gross negligence for COVID-19. Do you think the concerns that businesses have are realistic? The other thing is, we're an employer with about 200 employees, we're trying very hard to get people back to work, temperature test, what do you do if... There's so much out there right now that makes getting people back challenging as an employer. What is the role of Congress in the states and what would you advocate?
Chris Christie:
Listen, we've asked our small businesses to endure enormous pain. Seems to me that we need to give them some protection in return. And if we want this economy to get moving again, I think a gross negligence standard is a pretty good standard. And if somebody's not taking any steps in terms of protecting their own employees, well, then they deserve to have some liability. But if they're taking reasonable steps, temperature checks, social distancing in the office, the frequent and pervasive availability of hand sanitizer and soap and all the rest of things, regular intensive cleaning of the office space. Those are all going to be expenses for the employer to absorb. But in return for absorbing those expenses, they should get some liability protection, I believe.
Gary Shapiro:
Do you think-
Chris Christie:
I think gross negligence is a good standard, Gary?
Gary Shapiro:
Well, certainly we have more trial lawyers and more lawyers per capita than any other country in the world. Do you think our country could continue to afford the vig we pay to the legal system for private lawyers trying to maximize personal pain for their own gain?
Chris Christie:
Not at the moment, we can't. I think America has figured out a way to make that balance happen for the most part because of the vigor and the power of our economy, but right now, we can't afford to do it. And that's why I advocate for this type of protection, because we've got to put the greater good ahead of the good of any particular sector of our economy. And I think setting a gross negligence standard, in return for businesses getting back to work and taking common sense protections to their employees, makes a lot of sense.
Gary Shapiro:
So New Jersey is a state which is clearly you've led for eight years and it's a leader in the health care industry and biotech. How do you see health care coming out of this and changes in health care because of this staying at home and because of this rush for a vaccine and how we treat patients? Do you see a difference in terms of the future of health care and how it looks in this country?
Chris Christie:
I think health care is going to come out of this stronger than it was before. I think that folks will have a greater appreciation for the health care system than they even had before. I think what the health care system did in this country, given the surge in so many areas of the country that challenged our hospital system and challenged our private physician system, I think it held up really, really well. And so I think we'll come out of it stronger from a health care perspective. I found that very interesting, Gary, that you don't hear the partisans in Congress complaining about the pharma industry right now, do you? All these complaints about the greedy pharma industry now, everyone's sitting around with their fingers and toes crossed, praying that the incredibly smart pharma industry in this country is the industry that delivers us therapeutics and a vaccine. And you don't hear anybody complaining about how much it costs to do this now, or about what the motives are. And I hope that this changes a bit of the political approach to the long skeptical about that. But regular Americans approach to the pharmaceutical industry now.
Chris Christie:
New Jersey, is the medicine chest of America. And so I certainly have my biases regarding that industry having been governor here for eight years. But I will tell you, they do an extraordinary, extraordinary service for this country on top of it. And what they're doing right now can't be done anywhere else in the world and won't be done anywhere else in the world. So I hope that that attitude changes a little bit and we understand that the investments that are made in research and development pharma, are for the most part investments that are meant to protect the public health of the American people and we're going to see it in this crisis. And if we do develop their effective therapeutics and a vaccine, I'm hoping that that'll change for a long time, a lot of this criticism of the pharma industry. Some of which, no industry is perfect, some of which was warranted, but in my view, most of which was unwarranted.
Gary Shapiro:
So here you are talking to a tech audience that's national and in Virginia and Maryland and D.C. Would you say the same thing about the tech industry you just said, if you substitute the word tech industry for pharma?
Chris Christie:
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the response to the tech industry to allow us to all continue to operate like we're operating right now, it's been extraordinary. You have not heard about any type of large scale crashing of systems, despite all the strain that we're putting on those systems right now, with the video conferencing we're doing. One of the things that way of life has changed is, people are all sitting at home, everybody wants to set up a video conference. I'm doing more video conferences there have ever been in my life. And they're non stop. But it's a credible testimony to the infrastructure that's been built in the main by the private sector and the tech industry and the incredible innovation that's been developed by that portion of the tech industry to allow that infrastructure to be utilized in a way that's been so expansive and so incredibly necessary during a time like this.
Chris Christie:
I will tell you that I don't feel like I've missed much with the clients I work with and the boards that I'm on, by being able to use this technology. So yeah, I think you can use that. I've often advised a number of my friends in the tech industry, I think they need to get out of the crowds here and start talking about the great advantages they bring to this country because I'm a believer in that industry and I'm a believer in American innovation. And we shouldn't be apologizing for it, there're a lot of people who want to beat up on anybody who's successful. That's not my point of view.
Gary Shapiro:
Well, it is true that in large measure the US has the world leading tech companies and pharmaceutical companies. We have a lot of the innovation here but yet, we do end up beating up on our own industries. Actually some people have called for a moratorium now on beating up these companies because they are feeling the American economy and they have made such a difference in this crisis. Imagine if this had occurred when we were starting out, how our kids would have gotten to school, what would have happened, how we would be able to communicate, how we'd have business? It's just... I don't know. It's hard to imagine, but it would be a lot worse than what we have now.
Chris Christie:
Or be even greater disaster, Gary. There's no doubt about it. And I think performance should be what drives the moratorium. And I don't think anybody can really quibble with the performance of the American tech industry in the midst of this crisis. It's really been pretty astounding.
Gary Shapiro:
Glad to hear you say that. So I do want to talk about one thing, you had a huge victory of sorts two weeks ago, the Supreme Court, 9-0 said that shutting down a bridge is not a violation of federal law. And one of your former colleagues or employees was let out of jail because of it. You are known for speaking out, that's your brand. You tell the truth, you're honest. You're a speaker who said no holds barred in any questions, I appreciate that. So I'm asking this one. What is your reaction to that and what lessons of leadership are there?
Chris Christie:
Well, a lot of things. But let's start off with the fact that these indictments that were thrown out as being unlawful, were announced the last time I spoke before the Northern Virginia Technology Council. The day I came down to speak, Bobbie will remember this very clearly. We had to deal with indictments being announced while I was actually at the NVTC speaking in May of 2015.
Gary Shapiro:
I was interviewing you there as well, Governor.
Chris Christie:
Yes.
Gary Shapiro:
I introduced you. Right. Amazing, your courage in coming back to us.
Chris Christie:
Yeah, no-
Gary Shapiro:
I'm hoping nothing bad will happen today.
Chris Christie:
Think about it. It's five years later. It took five years for justice to happen. So let's divide this. Let's start off with the thing that the three people who worked in my administration did. And to correct your question, the bridge was never shut down. There were three lanes coming from one area from a town, that will reduce to one lane coming from that town and those two lanes went to route 95. So the bridge was never closed, no lane in the bridge was ever closed, no one was ever denied access to the bridge. So, that became a shorthand that was adopted. That was never true, but their conduct was wrong. And what deserve to happen to them did happen. When I found out about it, they were fired and they would never get a job in public life again, that's an appropriate remedy for doing something that sophomoric stupid, but it was not a crime. And what you had, was an Obama Justice Department. And on this I will be partisan, Gary.
Chris Christie:
This was in my view, a vindictive and partisan prosecution that remember when it started, it started right after you mentioned my 61% reelection in 2013. At that time, I was the front runner for the Republican nomination for president and I was the only Republican in the field, who was beating Hillary Clinton consistently in the polls. And this is an Obama US attorney, who decided he could go get me on this. I will tell you that lawyers... And this is going to come out now because there's going to be proceedings about this, about the conduct of this prosecutor. Now, I'm confident going forward by the Justice Department. And he was advised in March of 2014, that what he was alleging was not a federal crime. In fact, a brief was given to him on that and exactly what they said in that brief is exactly what the Supreme Court ruled six years later. So he was on notice that this was a problem. And when the Supreme Court rules nine-nothing, Gary, in this current climate, this court, nine-nothing.
Chris Christie:
Only the misconduct of this US Attorney could bring Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Clarence Thomas together. And it did. So it was a horrible injustice. And it rewrote history. No question in my mind that it changed history. Now, the lessons of leadership on this though, are that, you're going to be held accountable for anything anybody in your employ does. So I never walked away from accountability for the fact that I hired those people. They did something stupid, but that's very different, having approved of it, being responsible for it, or anything like that, which through all the investigations, no one ever alleged that we did. So, I think it was a very expensive price to pay for all of us. And I'm not just saying me, Gary. As you mentioned, one of those former employees served three months in federal prison for a crime that the Supreme Court said nine to nothing didn't exist.
Chris Christie:
That's awful, it should never happen in our justice system. And so I hope that the Justice Department is going to take a strong look at what happened here and try to make sure that it doesn't happen to people again, because not only for the people who were prosecuted, but for dozens and dozens of my employees, they were dragged into the grand jury, had to pay legal fees, had their reputations tarnished. And for me, it certainly changed the course of my political career in many respects. But the good news is Gary, I'm only 57. And this is now an item that's off my resume. And gladly so. And entitled my book that I wrote a year ago, Let Me Finish, for a reason. And I think this frees me up to try to finish what I started.
Gary Shapiro:
So let me ask you about that. And I appreciate your candid response. What was the... Going forward is there... You're well known in New Jersey, do you think you could... Most governors who go to the Senate, for example, are not happy at least the first few years, because you go from a position of authority to a position where you're the junior senator, by definition. Is that a possibility? Another run in four years, perhaps a possibility for you? What's on your bucket list in terms of politics?
Chris Christie:
Well, I've said before, I would never run for the United States Senate. I don't think my personality is suited to be in the United States Senate, nor do I think I would find the experience to be fulfilling. And at this stage of your life, I don't think you should be doing anything that you don't think is fulfilling and where you don't think your skills and experience make things better. And so, no, I'd never run for the Senate. Would I run for president in four years? Sure, I'd consider it. There's a lot of things that have to happen between now and then, you have to see where the country is and what happens in this election in November. But at 57 years old, I wouldn't preclude that. And the great thing has been that all the roles that we talked about before allowed me to establish a national reputation and a national network of friends. And one of the things that the bridge gate matter did, and Bobbie would be able to tell you this as well as someone who was not only supporting me, but helping me to raise funds -
Chris Christie:
That's where it hurt us the most. Where it hurts the most was in our ability to have donors come and help us because they got spooked by the whole thing. And it also brought other people into the race, who I think otherwise wouldn't have been in the race if it hadn't happened. So you can never replicate the circumstances that you had before, life changes and evolves, but I'm not done in public life. And I think I'm an executive branch person by nature. And so if I were going to do anything, it would be either as someone who served in an executive branch of the federal government or who ran for president again.
Gary Shapiro:
So, that's on the table. That's good to know.
Chris Christie:
Sure.
Gary Shapiro:
So-
Bobbie Kilberg:
Let's do it.
Gary Shapiro:
... you were a federal prosecutor and you know the power of that position. Now that you know the result of that case and you've lived through this for four difficult years now, waiting for that result. Do you ever look back and say "As a federal prosecutor, maybe I shouldn't have done x?"
Chris Christie:
No, in fact, what it's done is, it's made me even prouder of what we did. Because I'll tell you... To give you the best example of the way we ran things, Gary. When I would swear in a new Assistant United States Attorney, we would do it in front of the entire office. They would take the oath of from the entire office, all the colleagues they were about to join, but before I brought them in that room to give them the oath, I tell them there was one last test in my office. And I would make them read the seal that was on my wall. And they would say, "Read it out loud?" I said, "Yes." And they'd say, "Department of Justice." I say, "Read it again." They say, "Department of Justice." I say, "It doesn't say department of prosecution, does it. It says Department of Justice. And what I expect you to do every day is justice. And sometimes that means walking away from a prosecution. And sometimes it means walking away from a prosecution against someone who in your gut, you know is guilty, but you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
Chris Christie:
If that's the case, you walk away, because if they're really that bad person, they'll be back." And I think that's the way the justice system has to work in this country. I think the presumption of innocence matters. And that's why... I remember a Democratic member of the House in New Jersey, at one time when I had 130 and 0 record in political corruption cases during my seven years as US Attorney. And thinking she was criticizing me, she said, "Well, of course, he hasn't lost a case. He only goes after guilty people." I was like, "Well, I thought that was my job. I thought we are not suppose to go against innocent people." And so no. I look back on it and that was one of the ironic parts of it because I brought 29 former Assistant United States Attorneys in the state government with me. And that's why we were so offended by this process, because we knew we'd never do something like that.
Chris Christie:
And in the end, the power of the prosecutor is enormous. We're seeing that now with General Flynn, we're seeing it in a number of different examples. And that's why you need a strong attorney general, who's going to demand more of the people who work for him or her. And I think we have that right now in Attorney General Barr, I don't think we had another Attorney General Sessions, I don't think we had another Attorney General Lynch and I don't think we had another Attorney General Holder. And I think you're seeing the results of that.
Gary Shapiro:
Thank you for the answer. From the audience... I was about to go to another question. This one's too delightful, I can't pass it up. Do you see a cabinet position for Bobbie Kilberg in a President Christie administration?
Chris Christie:
I don't know if I can afford Bobbie Kilberg. I think I'll take Bobbie Kilberg in any position she's willing to do. And if I'm president, I can't imagine that I'm not going to be talking to Bobbie most days.
Gary Shapiro:
Well, she runs out [inaudible 00:47:12]. Question here, this is a wonderful discussion, you mentioned 36 million unemployed. I'm surprised there has been more discussion about health care insurance coverage for the unemployed. Is there something that we should be doing?
Chris Christie:
Well, I think there are some things of the Cares Act that are being done now to try to help people with COBRA and all the rest for those who have lost it and to help them to make those payments. And so yeah. And I think in the longer term, this is going to put a real strain on the American health care system. So, let's see how the economy recovers and let's make those decisions as they come. I think a lot of things people are trying to decide before we really know what circumstances are on the ground, I think we're doing some temporary things now and let's see what we have to do going forward to make sure that we protect people's access to health care.
Gary Shapiro:
So, I know that you're a Republican, you talk to President Trump. But if you were advising candidate, Vice President Biden, what advice would you give him?
Chris Christie:
Hide. He gave an interview this morning on CNBC. That was a little bit... I don't know, I just think there are times when he's not necessarily giving you confidence that he is ready for the job. So if I were giving him political advice, I'd say, stay in the basement, don't go out and do this stuff in campaign because right now, if it's just a referendum on President Trump, that's a good thing for Joe Biden. Because referendum are always difficult. When people just say, thumbs up or thumbs down on someone, American people tend to be a thumbs down type of person on any politician. The danger for Joe Biden is if this race gets turned into a binary choice between Trump and Biden, then Biden's going to have to prove he's up to it, Biden's going to have to make a case for his philosophical approach, which I think is too far left for a majority of this country.
Chris Christie:
So if I were advising Biden right now, I'd say, you're in the basement, you're not doing a lot of TV, you're not doing a lot of public appearances. Don't. Let's just ride this out for as long as we can politically and try to keep this a referendum on the president. To the extent that he begins to engage with the president, I think that's dangerous for the vice president, because I'm not sure as a candidate, that he's up to going toe to toe with Donald Trump as a candidate.
Gary Shapiro:
In what way, not?
Chris Christie:
I just think Joe Biden hasn't run for any significant office in a very long time, where he's been challenged by somebody who is willing to say and do the things that President Trump is wanting to say and do as a candidate. And is the vice president up to that type of really tough times ugly battle. He has not run in a competitive race in a very, very long time. And so, Delaware, he had no competitive races. And you could argue that the primary was competitive, but the primary was competitive for three states. Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina. Once he won South Carolina the race was over. And so I think it's been a long time since he's done that. I'm not saying he is not up to it Gary, but we have no evidence that he is. And some of the interviews and stuff that he's done during this period of time since South Carolina, I don't think I've encouraged a lot of people that his edge is there. And I can tell you, I've run for president. You need to have an edge, man.
Gary Shapiro:
Well, you raced and you were on stage with President Trump a number of times in the debates and you were the guy who is the attack dog, the tough guy who - you took a number of candidates out.
Chris Christie:
Yeah.
Gary Shapiro:
Is that something you would envision doing again or do you have any second thoughts about that or was that the right thing at the right time?
Chris Christie:
No, I think we ran a campaign that we had to run, we had to try to differentiate ourselves from the other people who were trying to run against Donald Trump. And so I think we did the best that we could do in a very crowded field. And let's face it, nobody did well against Donald Trump. Nobody, not any of the people on the stage did well.
Gary Shapiro:
Why do you think that is?
Chris Christie:
I think it was a time in our country's history when they wanted a non-politician. I'll give you one example that I use frequently. Mary Pat was going door to door in New Hampshire for me. She went up to a Republican door, the woman opened the door, an older woman. She said, "I'm Mary Pat Christie, I'm married to the Governor." "Oh, come on in dear. Come inside. I love your husband. He is so smart and tough and articulate. We're voting for Trump, but I love your husband. I hope he's vice president or attorney general." And Mary Pat said, "Well, if you love my husband and you think he's so smart and tough and articulate, why are you voting for Trump?" And she said, "Oh, dear, we don't need another politician." And I think that it just turned out to be a time that having a title of any kind in the Republican Party was a detriment.
Chris Christie:
And also you were dealing with a candidate who was the first candidate I remember in my lifetime, who came into a republican primary with 100% name ID from having a television show on network television for 10 years that was rated in the top 15 for 10 years and unlimited money. That's a unique set of circumstances. And that's why I think, once he was in the race and the way the media treated him, which much different the way they treat him now. Remember during the Republican primary, they couldn't have enough of him on TV. And that made it very, very difficult for the rest of us to get oxygen as well.
Gary Shapiro:
Yes, I remember CNN telling me early on that they would run him 24 hours a day if they could, because he was driving up ratings, driving up what the advertisers were paying and they'd keep running no matter what. In fact, at that point, they said, "We know he's not a serious candidate, but we're going to cover him exclusively."
Chris Christie:
And by covering him exclusively, they made him a more serious candidate. That's exactly what they did. I remember, Jeff Zucker one time criticized me for having endorsed Trump. And he said, "You made him. You gave him credibility." I said, "Doctor, heal thyself. You're the one who was putting on speeches from Alabama an hour, an hour and 10 minutes uninterrupted by commercial or anything else. You weren't offering that to me or Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio or Jeb Bush, or John Kasich. So, doctor, heal thyself."
Gary Shapiro:
Well, it would be an interesting campaign, I think in the context of COVID virus, but is it COVID changing the political debate now in terms of how we go forward to November?
Chris Christie:
Oh, sure. Because no other issue matters. Think about in February, Gary. We thought we'd be having arguments about impeachment and Ukraine and issues like that. No one cares. Can you imagine somebody bringing up impeachment or Ukraine, the American public would laugh at them. All that matters right now is this. Now, as we get to September, October, some other issues may emerge. But right now, COVID, the President's handling of COVID is all that really matters to the American people. So it's completely changed it and this changed the way we campaigned. Are we going to even have conventions later this summer? If I had to guess, I'd say it's unlikely. The large rallies that presidential campaigns on both sides normally run, probably much different. You're going to see... There's a great book out there that Karl Rove wrote that came out a few years ago called The Triumph of William McKinley. And it was really the last front porch presidential race that was ever run, where McKinley barely ever left his home and other surrogates campaigns for him. And they campaigned in other ways.
Chris Christie:
It's an interesting read for people like me who are nerds about politics, interesting book to pick up, not that Karl needs help making money, but it's an interesting book to pick up for folks, The Triumph of William McKinley. Because we may very well have a campaign that's very much like that 1896 campaign for the first time in 125 years, where candidates are not going to be interacting with the public in a close way, the way we normally do shaking hands, big rallies, all the rest of that selfies, all that stuff. We may be back to a much more distant campaign. So reading that book might be a good primer for the fall campaign.
Gary Shapiro:
Okay, we have two minutes and I have two quick questions. I see Congresswoman Barbara Comstock has asked, given tech companies have gotten us through this pandemic, they've been essential leading in health and huge financial donations will be essential in getting the country back to work, does it make any sense to you the state Attorneys Generals and DOJ are tying tech companies up with wide ranging undefined investigations?
Chris Christie:
Well, no, it doesn't. But what I will say is this, that some of the tech companies conduct regarding privacy is what has gotten them in this spot. And I think a lot of them were a little bit too loose, whether it was Google or Facebook or others, a little bit too loose with people's private information. And I think that's what's gotten people in those departments interested in the tech companies. And I think they've got to prove to the American public that they're going to be a little more careful about how they use people's private information. I don't think it justifies in the way that Barbara mentioned. And Hi, Barbara, I'm glad you're on the call. Wide ranging ill-defined prosecutions, but I do think that they have to be held accountable for how they deal with people's private information. So there's got to be a balance there. But these kind of antitrust type of... Which is I think what Barbara's implying. I think that's a little ridiculous.
Gary Shapiro:
That's creating new law. Final question. What keeps you up at night? And what three things would you like to see us do as a country to get out of this and move on to the next stage of employment?
Chris Christie:
Well, what keeps me up at night, is the idea that it may take years for this economy to recover. And that a lot of the small businesses that I used to frequent on South Street in Morristown, New Jersey around the corner from my office won't be there anymore. And that those guys will be forever ruined by that. And that's what keeps me up at night. The three things I'd like to see us accomplish, I think is, one, to do everything we can creatively to try to create economic incentives for small businesses to get back into business and help them in every way that we possibly can. Secondly, we've got to return our manufacturing base to the United States from China. I think one of the things we've learned through all this is that China is cheap, but it's not secure. And I don't want to ever, ever, ever again, to be at the mercy of China, because 10 or 15 years from now, Gary, they may not be so merciful.
Chris Christie:
And they're clearly competing with us to be the economic powerhouse in the world, we got to get real with that and we've got to create incentives in this country to bring manufacturing especially of pharmaceuticals and other medical equipment back here, because having it over there doesn't make any sense. And I think third, we have to... And this is going to be delayed now if we don't couple it with some type of revenue, but we have to get the infrastructure in this country. It's long, long overdue. Our roads, our bridges, our tunnels, our airports and the new G5 capability, we're going to have talking about technology, we need to rebuild the infrastructure in this country. And we need to make a major federal investment in doing that. I did it in New Jersey, and we raised the gas tax for the first time in 27 years to do it. But right now in New Jersey, you're spending over $2 billion a year on rebuilding infrastructure and people can see the difference. Imagine if we had a similar type plan nationally. And I think we need to do that.
Chris Christie:
So those are the three things that I think we need to be focused on, on the most. Economic incentives to help small business in particular, returning manufacturing base and getting serious about China in that regard. And third, focusing our efforts going forward on rebuilding America's infrastructure, because we're going to need it and our public deserves it.
Gary Shapiro:
Well, thank you, Governor. I want to be respectful of your time. I appreciate your generosity and your candor and the strategies you've talked about in leadership and thought and I wish you well. Thank you all. It's been a great session.
Chris Christie:
Thank you, Gary, very much. Bobbie, we love you.
Bobbie Kilberg:
Love you too.